Harry Potter Appreciation Society Meeting

Fabulous to see our senior students co-ordinating such literary activities: well done Alyssa. Hope the event goes really well.
MG
“Harry Potter Appreciation Society Meeting this Thursday 8th March at 2pm outside the canteen. Great discussions of all things Harry!”
Organized by Alyssa P (3rd Year Literature)
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  347 comments for “Harry Potter Appreciation Society Meeting

  1. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

  2. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

  3. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

  4. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

  5. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

  6. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

  7. March 9, 2007 at 1:39 am

    Just out of pure curiosity and nothing else.

    Is there anything in the University codes of conduct that would prevent me from setting up an “Anti Harry Potter Appreciation Society?”

    • March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

      ha…
      you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

        Christ no.

        Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

        A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

        Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

        The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

        An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

        I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

        I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

        As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

        Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

        I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

        It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

        As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

        Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

        http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

        Counterpoint

        All very well my good doctor…

        However…

        One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

        You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

        One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

        Shaunus

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

        Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        True:

        But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

        Bravo to J.K…..

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

        See my earlier comment.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

        You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

        this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

        As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

      • March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

        More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

      • March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

        The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

        Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

        To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

        Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

        And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

        I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

      • Anonymous
        March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

        It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

        Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
        1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
        & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
        Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

        There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
        characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

        Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

        The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

      • March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        I’m going to have to disagree.

        Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
        Brooks: Shanara
        Eddings: Sparhawk.
        Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
        TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
        Mc Caffity: Dragons.

        If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

        Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

        Dragons.
        Elves.
        Magic swords.
        Knights.
        Castles.
        Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
        Dragons.

        Themes:
        A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
        The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
        An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
        An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

        Literary devices.
        Quest.
        Battle.
        Prophecies.
        Fate.
        Adventure.
        And so on.

        Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

        – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
        – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
        – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
        – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
        – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
        – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
        – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

        We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

        (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

        (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

      • March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

        Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
        Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
        Also
        in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
        There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
        However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
        Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

      • Anonymous
        March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

        Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

        (ed)

        If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

      • March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
        To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
        The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
        I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

        Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
        This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

        If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

        “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

        Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

        Or

        That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

        “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

        Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

        And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

      • March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

        Re: Counterpoint

        Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

        Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

        If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

        In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

        I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

        Re: Counterpoint

        “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

        Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

        Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

        Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

        This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

        Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

        Seriously, get a life

        Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Bit harsh there Cam

      • March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Okay Cam,

        These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

        All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

        More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

        No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

      • March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

      • March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

        Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

        Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

        So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

        I was starting to take you guys seriously.

        One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

        Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

        How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

      • March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

        Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

        Well as you say I don’t know you.

        I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

        “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

        Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

        Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

        “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

        Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

      • March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

        Re: Seriously, get a life

        “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

        Okay so who is ‘they?’

        Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

        “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

        I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

        Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

      • Anonymous
        March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

    • March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

      • March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

        Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

        This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

        It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

        First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
        through little less than a rant..

        Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

        Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
        first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

        Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

        Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

        This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

        Shaunus

      • March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

        You don’t find it funny?

  8. March 9, 2007 at 6:53 am

    ha…
    you’re more than welcome to come to our Harry Potter meetings to discuss your concerns, the more the merrier!

  9. March 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

    Christ no.

    Sweet Jesus. Holy Jew!. Harry Potter is detroying literature as we know it. Drivel taken, stolen and liberated from multiple other sources (See Terry Pratchet amongst others) spewed up in painfully cultrivorus prose, and re written then edited by a professional team of writers and marketed to our children as literature, and god help us it’s penetrated our tertiary instatutions, managled any concept of language as art, infested the literary notions of mass man, and worst of all has now become a popular source of reading as a group norm.

  10. March 9, 2007 at 7:28 am

    A simple “no thank you” would have sufficed…I don’t know if you’ve read them more than once (or at all), but they aren’t claiming to be great pieces of literature. People aren’t upset that they haven’t won a Pulitzer Prize; they’re just a bit of fun and it’s so easy to jump on the anti-Harry Potter bandwagon just because you have trouble understanding that. So what if a lot of people like them, or they are being used in schools because kids can actually relate to them or heaven forbid enjoy them? Get off your high-horse.

  11. March 9, 2007 at 7:51 am

    Counterpoint

    All very well my good doctor…

    However…

    One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale – though it doesn’t find itself a literary masterpiece J.K. Rowling is a fine storyteller as opposed to a lot of ‘aspiring literature’ which often ends up sounding like a long authorial diatribe. There is a reason why reading became so unpopular amongst youth – and now there is a reason it has been revitalised. One cannot hope that people will move to discover works of amazing quality if they never discover a passion for reading in the first place.

    You probably should consider airing your views at the group – even mentioning a dissenting society seems to provide no purpose other than to antagonise a proactive student…

    One should think that you, particularly, would understand this – Hope Alyssa sees you there one day!!

    Shaunus

  12. March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

    People use them for all sorts of nonsense. I remember first year the rubbish we had to read on Kohlberg’s levels of moral reasoning and the relationship with Harry Potter’s books, which was complete crap and neglected the neo-Kantian foundations of Kohlberg’s theory, and trivialised the different stages within a very shallow frame work to try and fit events in the book. When I brought this up, I remember being shouted down by the cult of Harry Potter who objected to as much.

    Moreover I dislike the books because they are corporate literature, designed for the mass markets and making a lot of money from stealing other authors work and ideas, (which on its own should be reason enough for people to dislike the books) if you don’t believe me look at several of Terry Pratchet’s books (as the most prominant author who’s work has been plagerised), and you’ll see that she even mimics the tone of prose he uses.

    The books themselves are offensive, not just to Christians, but to Pagans, because they take a lot of what is sacred within indigenous European religion and use it without regard for the religions adherents who still practice it.

    An analogy would be taking the Holy Spirit from the Catholic Trinity and giving it to some character like Jesus-man, to fight evil. It’s not so much that she uses magic, it’s that she uses specific Wiccan ideals about magic for her characters, and moreover that she exposes children to these when followers of the Religion reconsie that chilrden are way too young to be exposed to such, that Pagans find most offensive. That she has stolen the frame work out of another Religion, and has used the work of other authors I think are the most objectionable elements of the series, but it’s the wholesale narrow-mindedness of her readers to any objection raised about the books that bothers me so much.

    I got fired from a job in a book store because a girl I was working under was a huge Harry Potter fan who didn’t like my criticisms of the book, or the fact she hadn’t read any other fantasy or books within the genre.

  13. March 9, 2007 at 7:52 am

    Seriously, get a life

    Dude what is your F’ing problem man? Why do you always have to rip into people? How would you like it if someone attacked your fan base. Of course from the way you relate to people on journal your probably a loner so you dont have one.

  14. March 9, 2007 at 7:56 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    “One cannot deny the merits of any prose that encourages reading on such a global scale”

    Or the marketing behind such and a globalsied culture of media influance.

  15. March 9, 2007 at 7:58 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    Bit harsh there Cam

  16. March 9, 2007 at 7:59 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    Its personal. lol. He’s had a go at me. You me, I never go down fighting. Im just trying to get behind my fellow bretheren

  17. March 9, 2007 at 8:01 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    True:

    But i believe that reading influEnces independant thought better than most else in this world – so long as kids are experiencing reading not only are they improving upon vital literacy skills but they’re exercising imagination and thought process as well!!!

    Bravo to J.K…..

  18. March 9, 2007 at 8:03 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    http://camheartsamber.livejournal.com/158412.html?mode=reply

    “Oddly enough the offender as an Asian resteraunt.

    Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

    I wouldn’t be critacising anybody about ‘ripping into people’ with racist remarks like this.

    Was the restaurant Korean, Jappenses, Chinese, or was iit just being asian enough to link it with Whale Harpooning, did you stop to check the nationality of the restaurant in question, or as I said, was it just a racist slur based on a person genetic disposition?

  19. March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Not when the work is out right theft from other authers, and not when she has blatantly exploited a relgious minority by using their sacred beleifs to make money.

    See my earlier comment.

  20. March 9, 2007 at 8:05 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    Actually yes I did, it was Japanese….Im a journalist so I always check my facts. Im not one to be racial slur. Hell you have every right to comment about that. But lets see you have the courage to start something publically. Its all very easy to critisise someone, but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved

  21. March 9, 2007 at 8:06 am

    I disagree that they are corporate literature as her first book had only 1000 copies printed, half of which went into public libraries…hardly catering for the masses. JKR never set out to be as popular and successful as she is now, it actually took 3 books for people to really get into her.

    As for being offensive for Christians, IF this was the case i doubt whether so many Catholic schools would incorporate it into their english syllabus. That reason for hating Harry Potter is, i’m afriad so weak…no semi-intelligent person could take that seriously. Perhaps some people, unlike yourself, can see the good in it and not simply assume that the references to magic/wicca have negative effects on young people.

    Perhaps you were fired from your job because you were acting like a child

  22. March 9, 2007 at 8:12 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    So its enough to label all asians as cruel to animals because of something you read about whale harpooning and your experiances in a restaurant, or just the Jappenese ones?

    “but when was the last time you stepped out of your comfort zone to do something that you loved”

    Right here, and now. Anyone who reads my journal will know I love Literature, I’m making a stand against mass Coporate best seller list rubbish and defending it. I’m stating what I think in no uncertain terms, and clearly, and concisely giving my reasons for doing so. I think her exploitation of indignous European religon is wrong, I think her derrivative work and theft from other authors is wrong, and I think that the mass coporate publishing culture that promotes this trash under a mega-corporate publishing and distrabution monopoly is wrong as I’m sure any genuine writer or person who has run a publishing house on genuine princpels of literature will tell you.

  23. March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Actually you’ll find it’s quite hard to find a novel (particularly fantasy) in which ideas are not recycled and reused. I happen to be a veritable fantasy junky, and a Pratchett fan to boot, I find nothing gratuitous in the HP series to this end…

    You have to remember literature is an art so borne of the world you’d also be quite hard pressed, I must say, to find a piece which does not at all appropriate from some cultural grouping or another or more than one… take one look at Dan Brown’s works. Also for something closer to home have a look at Gwynne’s ‘Deadly Unna’ which actually came under quite some fire for so closely touching upon real world events….

    this is actually quite fun – perhaps rather than leaving comments you really SHOULD materialise at a H.P.A.S meeting; I actually think you may enjoy expressing even an opposing view in a face to face forum!!!

  24. March 9, 2007 at 8:14 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    I didnt label all “Asians” I have a lot of Asian friends as it were. I was merely commenting about the restraunt, and the poaching business. Its not like no body else knows about it

  25. March 9, 2007 at 8:44 am

    I had an article that Bill Congreve gave me a few years back on how the books are actually written. The original manuscript was taken on an advance by Bloomsbury and then re-written and sold for a mega fortune to an American company, I can’t recall the details, but at the time Bloomsbury were looking for some sort of cash cow to try and get a foothold in the American children’s literature market.

    It was significant because at the time I was trying to get a micro-publishing company off the ground and Congreve is a fellow publisher and writer in the Fantasy market. He will tell you as much as anyone it’s all about monopoly and market not about the literature it’s self.

    As to your refrance to Catholic schools, there is not much they can do about the curriculum.

    Here is an article with a link to two letters written by the Pope against Harry Potter, and condeming it because it ‘deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly’

    http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html

  26. March 9, 2007 at 8:53 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    You don’t find her prose at all derivative of Terry Pratchet’s, or the school she sets out reminiscent of that in his DIscworld, particularly Colour Of Magic, Equal Rights, and Hogfather (My favourite Pratchet novel)

    As for attending one of these meeting, judging by reactions so far I’d be shoudted down, which is genrally the reaction most Potter fans give to any critacism of the work, particularly those who have little if anything else of the fantsy genre.

  27. March 9, 2007 at 8:56 am

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    “Its outragous, first they harpoon our endangered whales for “scientific purposes” and then they desecrate our fish…..”

    Okay so who is ‘they?’

    Surly you don’t mean the people in the restaurant are out there harpooing whales, and since you say.

    “Oddly enoguh it’s an asian restaurant’

    I’m assuming you are connecting your ‘they’ by ethnecicity?

    Isn’t there something in the University Code of COnduct against racism?

  28. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  29. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




  30. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




  31. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  32. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  33. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  34. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




  35. March 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

    I don’t get why people are getting so upset over Harry Potter. We go way back, I was one of the orignal actors who they auditoned for the roles, sadly it didn’t work out.




    • March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

      I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  36. March 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm

    Re: Counterpoint

    Yes there are some similarites amongst the two. However when writing fantasy I believe you really need to create a world to suit your story and the dank, dark age England castle complete with various towers and all does suit the feel of the series, even creating a darker milieu as the series progresses. even the moving staircases were an important plot device in the first book!

    More to the point though – you should not judge these people based on these posts – Cam in particular is doing us no favours by his unnessecary, and stupid, outbursts and DOES NOT in ANY way shape or form speak for, or is even loosely affiliated with this group. I can vouch personally for Alyssa and company at these meetings as really level headed people, sometimes even self-effacing about their love for this story I’m certain there will be levity to any points you bring up there…

  37. March 9, 2007 at 11:05 pm

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    Okay Cam,

    These attacks, which is really all one can say about them, were totally uncalled for…

    All you really did was defame our ability to have a level-headed conversation about a good story – which is basically the crux of this course.

    More to the point you only really hurt the image of groups like Alyssa’s by speaking as a volatile fanatic, the good doctor was right in saying no one should have to show up to a group to be shouted down for his/her views and in this instance it has looked as if your speaking for this group.

    No one has the right to tell other people how to post but i really do believe in this case you should really have practiced a little more diplomacy over letting this all degenerate into a series of loosely veiled personal attacks

  38. March 9, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    Re: Seriously, get a life

    Yeh I know….Sometimes I wonder if I’m like good ol Captain Reynolds. Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh

  39. March 10, 2007 at 9:09 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    What about Pratchet’s school for Magicians? There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid, in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.

    The warm, slightly sarcastic tone she uses is directly derivative of Pratchett’s unique style, there are similarities in her books directly related to other authors, one of my friends, Bill Congreve, a published sc-fi author and manager of several books stores had an extensive list of authors who were pressing suit against her for these ‘similarities’ in her books, several years back when I was still running a micro-publishing company.

    Being a Pratchett fan you can’t tell me a lot of her stuff isn’t ripped straight out of his books? And saying it’s okay because fantasy carries familiar themes doesn’t justify the fact she’s doing it. I’m not talking about wizards, dragons and castles, I’m talking schools for magicians, prose, characters and more than a few plot devices.

    To me the reason why I’m so passionately against these global mega corporate publishing cartels is that they destroy genuine authors with their books store monopolies, and publish best seller trash aimed at making their billions. There are numerious ways and means they prevent authors and other publishing companies from getting into book stores. The next time you are in one look at the names of the publishing companies being stocked, the way the shelves are stocked, and then carefully think about why this is. Think about the fact a book comes out in its first week on the best seller list, or just like inm usic, who picks what songs to put on the charts.

    Okay step back from Potter, let’s consider another example of this mass market, amalgamation corporate trash that’s designed for milking the Children’s market. That guy; Christopher Paloni I think his name is, and his god-awful Inheritance trilogy. You can’t tell me the rubbish they are putting together and selling under Eragon isn’t ripped straight out of an Anne Mc Caffity novel? Moreover they are making a killing from doing it, and at the same time you’ve got genuine writers with real manuscripts, not stuff re-written by corporate teams of copy editors whose work never gets out there because of the monopoly in the market. (I’ve met them, brilliant writers like Bill Congreve, who every year manages to get Australia’s best unrecognized talent together into compilations, and under ground pulp magazines like Dark Animus, or Aurealis run by dedicated enthusiasts out of their back pocket.) And here you’ve got other authors who’s work is blatantly plagiarised, dumbed down, and then marketed to people wholemeal to consume.

    And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!. But when I put forward my ‘literary views’ in the entirely innocent context of a ‘literary’ subject and explain why I disagree, have my own views and would like to investigate the possibility of opening my own anti-Harry Potter society.

    I get shouted down by the camheartsamber lunatic racist fringe.

  40. Anonymous
    March 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Re: Counterpoint

    I know I’ve already had my say on the outburst…

    It’s funny you should mention Aurealis – I actually try to support australian fantasy fiction wherever I can myself (every now and again deferring to the works of Feist, Gemmel etc etc) a personal favourite of mine is actually Jennfier Fallon whom i’m pretty sure wwon the Aurealis award for her debut novel ‘Medalon’. Now in this trilogy you have a race of magic users who abhor violence and, most notably, forego consumption of meat….

    Now i’m assuming your up-to-scratch with your fantasy reading so i’m pretty sure when i mention:
    1, Styrics from Eddings Elenium and Tamuli Sagas
    & 2, Elves ala Paolini’s ‘Inheritance’
    Even to some minuscule extent the Avar from Douglass 2 debut Trilogies…

    There is a similarity there but whats more important is that I enjoyed that
    characterisation EVERY TIME because it fit the story so damn well so even with some borrowing if it was the case it just so happens to fit into the potter series as if it were an innovation of that series – again this is a quality of a great story – known archetypes which defy all logic to hit the reader in a seemingly new and exciting way!!

    Although i’m obliged to point out that claiming ‘And what really gets me is that we are studying Literature at university, we have the inheritance of man in our back pockets, we have the gifts of Albion and Saturn, and yet people are reading this high school trash, which is fair enough, each to their own. Read what you want. Its your ignorance!’ is really not becoming of you – might I suggest a little neutrality if you DON”T want to be attacked because that does come accross as quite insulting to some; be mindful of the medium we’re using!

    The last point is a real shame because if not for some over zealous comments this was an interesting little debate….

  41. March 10, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    Re: Counterpoint

    I’m going to have to disagree.

    Douglas: Battle Axe trilogy.
    Brooks: Shanara
    Eddings: Sparhawk.
    Feist: Magician, and the rift world saga.
    TolkenL Lord of the Rings.
    Mc Caffity: Dragons.

    If we look at fantasy as a reactionary movement to post modernism we can see that all these books have shared characteristics. We will put these books into a specific circle which we will call the circle of anti-maternity.

    Within this, we will see that the themes, elements, literary devices, creatures and milieus these books share, are shared by all and belong to an older tradition of folk law, whether they be Gaelic, Baltic, Scandinavian, Teutonic, Greek, and so on . Lets make a preliminary list.

    Dragons.
    Elves.
    Magic swords.
    Knights.
    Castles.
    Mythical races such as orcs, dwarfs (Teutonic) beasts of yore.
    Dragons.

    Themes:
    A two value system of ethics made up of good and evil.
    The nature of myth over reality, and a universal significance to the universe.
    An emphasis on fate, or pre-destination, and universal pattern awareness.
    An intricate balance system of interlinked conflict and resolution within a linear story arc,

    Literary devices.
    Quest.
    Battle.
    Prophecies.
    Fate.
    Adventure.
    And so on.

    Now no body owns these devices or items. They are part of the genre and milieu that makes up fantasy. However should we make a second circle with the specifics of each books’ OWN creations, we shall see that Fantasy does have a very strict system of ownership, as a genre, and while it may have shared properties given it’s folk law origins, and it’s reactionary elements specifically to the rise of post modernism, each writer or artist is working within his or her space, with specifically his or her creations which are THEIR property.

    – Elcries, a tree that holds back an army of demons.
    – An ancient Japanese feudal world with almost no metal and a race of giant ants with allegiances to certain lords.
    – Specific magical laws laid down, or relationships such as Secrets of the Sixth Magic by Lyndon hardy with an extremely advanced theory of metaphysics and magical structure.
    – Specific characters that don’t fall into the archetypes of heroes, wizards, villains and demons, like Belgarth the sorcerer who’s wolf like nature is influenced by his metamorphous and his relationship bordering on bestiality with his wife whom we assume is dead for most of the series.
    – A nuclear powered space station at the bottom of an ancient lake.
    – God-like creatures of maddness who spread it during in the day light hours across the lands to all who are caought out or not within shelter.
    – A satirical school for magicians set specifically within the context of a modern University with magical mishap

    We can see very clearly here, given fantasy’s shared origns and folk law foundations, that what J.K. Rawling and her team of copy editors have done is clearly plagerism and should be justily condemned as such.

    (Incidentally the moving staircase you refer to earlier is specifically one of Douglas’s creations within the Battle Axe sereis.)

    (Dude i can’t beleive you are a fan of Paolini, have you not read any Anne Mc Caffity? You had my utter and complete respect at Feist, (Provided of course you read the alternative world Daughter to the Emprire sereis and linked the time lines to the invasion of Miccadaimia within the first sereis, through the intricate code of seqences he lays out with Janny Wurts) but then you completley lost it here.(I even gave you bravos on the Aureialis, and I was like, yeah this dude know what he’s talknig about, even though you left out Andrometer SPaceways, Orb, and the hard to find out of print old copies of Terror Australis.)

  42. Anonymous
    March 11, 2007 at 11:05 am

  43. March 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

  44. March 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

    “Always looking for a fight….Always seems to go in extremes eh”

    Racist fringe dwelling bigots usually are, ay Pauline?

    So this is how the Potter Group finally represents its self, with veiled threats and glib suggestions of violance? This is how the Harry Potter Appreciation SOciety deals anyone who disagrees with them. Like some clandestine evangelical born again church who snuffs the unbelivers out the back door with a black jack in the shadows.

    I was starting to take you guys seriously.

    One moment we are getting down to buisness about the nature and study of literature in a new, intresting and unconventional way, the next I’m being attacked for holding a literary view contrary to the majority, not content of my arguments, nor the foundations of my own concluions, nor even the nature of my literary tastes, but on some random assertion by Cam for which I fail to see is relevant if at all true or factual to the topic at hand.

    Now we have Cam’s calls for a public face off, and someone looking for a ‘fight’ which I hope is only refering to logomachy, and not the extremes that Cam seems to want to go to.

    How can this be fair? You guys founded a club on your ‘like’ and ‘appreciation’ of Harry Potter, I sugest founding one on my ‘dislike’ and strong contempt for harry potter, and after explaining why I have this dislike i get hounded and attacked, and whence the argument settels into the rut of rigourious literary dicussion, we’ve got Pauline Hanson here jumping up and down proclaimg they are out looking for some sort of a fight, like Captain Reynolds.

  45. Anonymous
    March 11, 2007 at 10:45 pm

    Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

    Dude, for God’s sake get over it. We all have better things to do than have a continual bitch on live journal. And secondly, dont think for a second that you think you know me, because you dont. Thirdly, I was referring to one of my old time favourite characters in that I dont go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me, it has nothing to do with having some macho face off. Quite frankly I dont give a shit either way. Dont think that you have anayse my every freaking statement

  46. March 12, 2007 at 3:56 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    There’s a character from the Watch identical to Haggrid

    Which character is this? I am fairly familar with the Pratchett novels, which are truly brilliant, but I was confused by your statement. The only character that I could think of that might be likened to Hagrid is Detritus, and that is simply based on his size. Maybe Nobby or Colon… if we were basing it on social gaffs. Is there someone I’m forgetting? I am fairly certain you don’t mean Sam Vimes, Cheery Littlebottom, Dorfl, Angua, Captain Carrot, Reg Shoe. I know there are others in the City Watch, but none of them seem to fit the bill either.
    Now please don’t view this query as an attack, I am simply curious to find which character you think Hagrid is identical to.
    Also
    in fact the very first book Pratchett wrote about disc world was on a magician in training at a specific . . . school for magicians.
    There have been many novels that have either witches or wizards attending schools to learn their trade. Hogwarts differs in many aspects from The Unseen University, and the only distinct similarity that I have noticed between the two is in the library of Hogwarts. (No, Madam Pince isn’t a orangutan!) In the Hogwarts library the books are described as seeming to have magic oozing out of them and occasionally having powers over their readers (or something to that affect). This does seem similar to the books in the Unseen University library.
    However, once again this type of description is something that is found in many novels which deal with magic and soucery. I don’t think Ms Rowling would be able to be accused of plagerism over it.
    Like I said earlier, this was the only specific similarity I have seen between the novels. Feel free to point out others to me that I may have missed.

  47. March 12, 2007 at 4:33 am

    Re: Instant racist fruitcake, just ad hominem.

    Well as you say I don’t know you.

    I can only judge from the racist comment you make on your own journal, your calls for a public face off, your need to find a ‘fight’ or at least look for one, and your wish to go to extremes, these are all things you have written, not me, in very plain straight forward English, without mentioning your straight forward attack on me, based on nothing more than an ad hominem, which Shaun even pulled you up on and critasized you, and from what i’ve read of Shaun he’s one of the most open minded, least judgemental charicters in the years above me, even in the debates with Neil last year over poetry Shaun didn’t resort to attack or ad hominem. as far as I know.

  48. Anonymous
    March 12, 2007 at 5:11 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

    Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

    (ed)

    If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

    Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

  49. March 12, 2007 at 5:13 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Okay, you got me, it’s been sveral years since I’ve read Pratchett, and all the books are at my mothers place packed away in a box, but there is deffinatly a charicter that is almost identical to Hagrid, I think either in Feet of Clay, or in Gaurs! Gaurds! Gaurds! I’m pretty sure he dies in the book, but he was also listed in Congreive’s article. And until I can get at my copies and find a good afternoon to read them in, you’ve shot this argument down.

    Her work is derivative of Pratchetts and many other fantasy authors, she’s taken bits from everywhere, you could start, for one, by looking at the schools themselves, and the idea of a school for magicans in the specefic milliu that authors both sets there’s in, as you have indicated there is dirrect simmlarity between the libraries, and a whole lot of other stuff I picked up when I was reading the two a few years back. As to other authors, the only one that comes directly to mind is Feist, and the two he sets up are based soemwhat on Medeval schools, and ‘nothing like Pratchett or Rowling except that they are univerities and assembalise of magicans’*

    (ed)

    If you give me a week or two (given the heavy reading lists for 19th century literature, the currant WebCt discussion, and the acerage of text nessary for any sort of formal critacism of the Greisbach theory-and espically given my ambitious position of proving the Markian position false ) I will go back and find all the little points I’ve rasied for anyone and everyone here who hasn’t already picked up on them.

    Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?

  50. March 12, 2007 at 9:54 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Man defamatory arguments really make me frustrated, so i will just like to add my two cents in as a somewhat prelude to detailing my thoughts on this stupid attack in a much more detailed manner:

    Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap (big example: Scream, I know what you did last summer; Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street….plus 10 billion others). Happens with music too, how many songs rip off other artists (damn that Mika or whatever with their Grace Kelly trying to be as cool as Queen). And so, surprise surprise, it obviouslt happens with literature too.

    If you’re right in your taunts, then i am going to call up whoever made the “Night at the Museum” movie and sue them because I wrote that story in year one (i still have it too).

    In my opinion, I don’t like the way you are going about your dislike for the Harry Potter, and in all honesty think you just need to eat it up because your comments are not constructive at all for anyone’s well being, and you are creating unecessary tension on Live Journal.

    I come on Live Journal to read some enlightening and thought-stimulating posts by others to help my own progression in live journal, yet I find rubbish like this instead.

  51. March 12, 2007 at 10:38 am

    Okay in this you’ve lost any respect at all I may have had for you….

    This serves absolutely NO purpose than to antagonise. Suddenly a lot is beginning to become clear to me. I try at every turn to maintain a level head however I cannot let this go on – particularly in our lecturers journal – yourself (AND YOU CAM!) should have more sense.

    It seems to me as if your on track to become the worst kind of literature graduate – the kind that sees his degree and love of text as licence to flaunt his faux ‘superiority’ over others:

    First of all if you wanted to express your opinion on the matter you could have fronted up to one meeting rather than turning down the polite invite
    through little less than a rant..

    Secondly there is no need to flaunt the privelege you’ve already had working in literature to muscle a fellow student; particularly since Alyssa’s reply to your overly vehement rejection was quite justified..

    Thirdly (And MOST importantly) you have absolutely NO RIGHT, nor does anyone else, to proclaim someone ignorant based on what they choose to read! Are you so inflated by your own sense of taste that you have to condemn others because their’s don’t match up? Reading should
    first and foremost be about reader enjoyment and not reading what ANYONE believes you SHOULD read.

    Finally I feel compelled to point out a dual hypocrisy here. First of all this very sign serves little more purpose than childish antagonism; which Alyssa, nor the H.P.A.S, has done naught to deserve – whom i’ve already explained Cameron does not speak for. You’ve taken issue to Cam’s aggression and yet result to no less hurtful tactics – and aimed at an innocent party to boot

    Also am I the only one who see the hypocrisy in One naming Oneself the ‘People’s’ Poet???? If nothing else you’ve inspired me, the result of which you’ll no doubt see…

    This is my last post here, I am sorry it came to this, but try to think of others, and especially your own place as a literary enthusiast in the future…

    Shaunus

  52. March 12, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Re: Counterpoint

    Do you have a position on her exploitation of Indiginous European Religion?
    To be honest, I think that this is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do not know all that much about the different Pagan religions and beliefs so I did a bit of searching via Google. Obviously I pulled up lots of anti-Harry Potter articles written by Christians (who all stated that the novels promoted Wicca and/or Pagan Beliefs).
    The only websites that I discovered which were written by people who practised Paganism / Wicca were either written in response to the Anti-Harry Potter Christians (and said that Potter did not promote Paganism/Wicca) or articles that explained why they liked the Harry Potter series.
    I wasn’t able to find anything written by Pagans/Wiccans that was anti-Potter on the grounds that it was offensive to their beliefs. (This is not to say that Pagans/Wiccans don’t find it offensive for these reasons).

    Personally, I think that Rowling doesn’t exploit Indiginous European Religion. Rowling draws from many historical, mythical and religious sources in her creation of the Harry Potter series. (And when I say draws from, I do not mean she steals ideas, but rather she weaves legend and truth throughout her storylines. This allows the reader to feel better immersed in her world, as we identify with these familiar concepts).
    This idea of using different references within a text is not new. The term for this technique is allusion and it has been used for centuries. It can be found in most texts, in fact Pratchett is probably the best example of an author who uses allusion. (Check out http://www.au.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html which has all the allusions and references that Pratchett makes – It’s brilliant!)

    If people do feel that J.K. Rowling exploits their religions and beliefs, unfortunately there is not much they can do. All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot? And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?

  53. March 12, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    Re: Counterpoint

    “Dude, just try and think of an original story that hasn’t been done before. How many movies are based on the same crap.”

    Off the top of my head and contemproary – Bradbury: The Small Assasin, Dandeline wine, The Wind, and the Cistern to name a few of my favourites. What’s so intresting about Bradbury’s work is that his orignality comes from common day things, the world over, that bilions of people see, yet he manages to deconstruct, and reconstruct them in amazing new ways.

    Clive Barker, pretty much everything in his Books Of Blood: in particular I’ve never read anything like The Hills: The Citties or Son of Celluloid. His Imajica novel totally blew me away, as well as Sacrament, and in terms of traditional horror as an art form its self within the genre, his Damnation Game. Weaverwrld as wel, and sweet Jesus, The Great and Secret Show, nothing else compares.

    Most of what I’ve read of Chuck Palahniuk is original and inventive. Phillip K. Dick’s orignality goes beyond anything else, except maybe Roger Zelany’s stuff which is pretty far out there in the fantasy and sci-fi genres, Asimov and Tolken, both for their time and era. I could go on, but I won’t.

    This post-modernist myth that somehow we’ve run out of ideas in no way justifies why her work is derrivative. You can’t just say it’s okay to plagerise and make money becuase there are no orignal ideas left.

    Just because we mass produce crap culture dosn’t mean there is not real stuff out there, maybe we need to start asking why more people arn’t aware of it. If you’re sick of movies like ‘Night At The Musem’ or why so “many movies are based on the same crap” maybe you should do something about it.

  54. March 12, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    You don’t find it funny?

  55. March 12, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    Re: Counterpoint

    My mother is a practising Pagan. Her Coven and many others have been protesting J.K. Rowling’s use of their religion to the publisher since the advent of the books. What’s more offensive is that particular elemnts of their relgion are not meant for children.

    “All across the world, every single day we have people’s beliefs, ideas, morals, and often even lives exploited… is Ms Rowling the worst of the lot?

    Lets be absolutly straight, them orality you are endorsing here is that: If person A hits Person C, that’s okay, because Person B stabs person D.

    Or

    That’s it’s okay for me to throw trash out the window, because companies dump toxic waste into our rivers.

    “And if we do criticise Ms Rowling for this so-called “exploitation” then where do we stop? Should we ban the series? I know that you personally do not always support censorship – but would this “exploitation” justify the censorship?”

    Who’s saying ban the work? I’m saying condemn it, condemn it for the exploitation and the plagerism, the re-writing, the coporate trash that it is, and if people want to read it anyway then they can go ahead and read it, and if they want to read it ignorant then that’s their choice as well.

    And if they want to gang up and yell at me because I have an opinion on the subject that differs from the mass of second and third year students, by all means, go ahead and do so, it’s not going to make me conform or change my opinions just to fit in and say, think and act like everyone else.

  56. March 12, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    I was pretty sure, if you didn’t find it funny, that you would have lost it here.

  57. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  58. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  59. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  60. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  61. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  62. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  63. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  64. March 13, 2007 at 9:42 am

    damn, i missed all this.

    NERDS!!

    It’s like, every nerd just outed themselves. Aww!!! i knew the nerds would eventually see that fighting was not the answer. focus on your similarities.
    it’s so good to see you all finding your common interest and getting along. 😉

    “she’s not that kind of girl Booger!”

  65. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  66. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  67. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  68. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  69. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  70. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  71. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

  72. March 14, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Re: Come on, you love it. You know you do.

    “I wouldn’t take any notice of it, especially coming from someone who can’t even spell- “instatutions”.

    So the basis of your argument is an ad hominim against me because i suffer from dyslexia? That’s its okay to dismiss people because they may have a learning disabilty, regurdless of the other avenues their intellignce takes them?

    Is this yet another personal attack from the ‘Potter Appreciation Society’ on someone who dosn’t agree with their view point or opinion?

    To my knowledge this was a closed topic as of yesterday afternoon.

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